Tommy Truong: [00:00:00] Before our conversation, I'm the back of my mind. I'm thinking to myself, how did a c chocolatier somebody that's entrenched in making amazing. Amazing products for the for general consumer.
Get into the position that you're in leading a cannabis company's, uh, lack of a better word, edible chocolate compartment. Yeah.
Julian Rose: Yep. Well, it's, uh, things by circumstance, I guess. Um, so you're right. I was, uh. What I call the conventional mainstream industry. I worked for a global chocolate company. Um, and before that my parents, we, they had a bakery pastry shop in Montreal, Canada. So, um, you know, I started basically as a pastry chef.
Uh, I grew up in a bakery and then I super specialized in chocolate and confection because it's an interesting, uh, branch [00:01:00] of pastry. So, you know, when you do pastries, it's all about precision. You know, cooking, baking, mixing, composing, composing recipes really, and thi this avenue of chocolate confectionery or KO lari.
As, as we say it, um, we, it was very interesting and, and, uh, it's more like, a little bit more refined. So I, I dug into that and took a lot of different seminars. Went to Europe. Um, and then I was working with this very large company called Berry Cabo. Who, who is the, the, the supplier of chocolate for the world.
Uh, they supply chocolate for large and small companies and little artisans. And they have a huge selection of chocolate. So they, uh, back in Montreal, they liked what I was doing and they asked me to do some classes, you know, sporadically classes for other chefs. So that's kind of like how I got my name, got out there because I [00:02:00] was doing classes and specific trainings for other professionals.
So I did that for about eight years and that took me around the country and around the world really. Uh, I did classes in, uh, pretty much every country in, uh, in America and South America. Uh, I did a few classes in Europe, um, and then I did a lot of troubleshooting. So part of my job was to create recipes yes, but also help people resolve problems and issues that we all have during our manufacturing.
So chocolate is very specific. It it. You can't just like melt it and, and cool it down. So you have to do a certain process called tempering, which a lot of people kind of hear about the word, but to do it is, is something a little different. So, um, all of that is, is fascinating to me because the science of confectionery and chocolate and cooking sugars with other ingredients like cream and [00:03:00] butter, it's chemistry.
And so that, that's kind of my, my, I'm inclining on. On the chemistry side, but I'm a, I'm an artist because I like to do cool things that are, uh, different, you know? Uh, and then in the center I'm kind of a businessman. So it, it's an interesting mix because a lot of my colleagues, pastry chefs, chocolatier, they're very creative.
They're, they're, they are artists. They want to do creations and they want to bring joy and happiness to people and. Now and then they get, they get submerged by their passion. Uh, they, they lose track of, if you have a business, you need to make money. Uh, and I think this is very true more than ever 'cause price, prices of the price of chocolate has skyrocketed in the last year, year and a half because of supply.
So that aside, uh, so I was doing, um, I'm quite well known I guess, in the industry [00:04:00] for chocolate and confectionery, and that's how I got. Demand or people were asking me to help them out on the west coast when the cannabis industry was just starting up. And um, so a lot of you touched the base. Uh, something earlier is like, a lot of people get into the cannabis industry, but they don't necessarily have any kind of training or knowledge.
They're just entrepreneurs and they want to. You know, create something cool. So, um, you know, I'm sure they, they hire consultants for like, how do I grow plants? How do I process plants? What kind of machine do I need? And so on. And that's kind of what I do for confectionery in chocolate. So I did a lot of consulting for different companies in Oregon, in California, Arizona.
Um, a little bit, a little bit everywhere on the west coast and, uh, also on the East coast. Uh, Insa and I got in contact as, as consultants. [00:05:00] So I came over in 2018, I believe, when, uh, regulation has just, they just passed, uh, recreational in Massachusetts. So now they went from medical only to recreational and then obviously the business kind of started exploding.
And they wanted, you know, gummy drops. They wanted chocolate and they were having issues with both of these products. Uh, they, I don't know where they got some formulas or recipes. And, uh, I came over, resolved most of their problems in a couple of weeks. And, um, so we kept in touch. I came back 3, 4, 5 times and just before COVID, um.
They, they made me an offer. They're like, oh, you should come over, work for us. And I was working in Portland, Oregon at that time for a, some pretty large, uh, chocolate company, like a just conventional company. And so, um, [00:06:00] still doing consulting left and right and. When COVID happened, all the consulting gigs disappeared and everything was on pause, and yet cannabis was sort of exploding.
So they um, they still asked me, they're like, if you want to come over, anytime, you come over. So I did move, I moved from Portland to Massachusetts. And it started like full-time in early, yeah, early 2020 or late 2019. So it was like the beginning of COVID. Um, so I got here and then we just went full blast.
Um, my philosophy to them was, let's start at the very top in quality. Because what I was seeing on the West coast and a little bit around where I would see customers, they were, it, it was all about the cannabis, of course, but also making it, making it as cheap as possible. So they have the biggest profits possible.
So they were [00:07:00] using compound chocolate, which is artificial or imitation chocolate. They were using in their, their gummies, just water sugar, corn, corn syrup. So I. And from my background, I said, we can do way better than this. We can do outstanding edibles, so high quality, real chocolate, real fruit purees in the, in the gummy drops, uh, real butter in the truffles, et cetera, et cetera.
So, and that's what I know. That's my background. Uh, high quality French Belgian, European style. Uh, products. So, um, it was kind of easy and, and the owners of Insa kinda gave me free reign to just, uh, bring to the table the best products possible. So that's what we did. And, um, it, we, we gained a reputation because.
Everyone, other people in the industry, were doing, you know, kind of rather cheap products because it's all [00:08:00] about the THC, which I'll come back to later. It's, it's an interesting dilemma. Uh, but in any case, so we, we, we continue to focus on that quality first and beauty of the product. Nice packaging. And I think we've never veered off of that.
So. Um, people always com compliment us and me. Even in private, they're like, why does your product taste so good? I don't know. What's the, what's the magic? And in reality, I used to say this to other chefs, it's interesting that if you have a five star restaurant and then you have a zero star restaurant, really the chef has access to the same ingredients, meat.
Seafood, butter cream, everything, chicken, everybody can buy this. Basically the same product. The low end restaurant is gonna buy the cheapest possible, maybe frozen proportioned, but they have access to this, [00:09:00] these great products, and they choose not to. And, and sometimes we also. Often talk about the five star restaurant because during the press and they have the accolades and they have recognition and high prices and such, but I think everyone has access to the same ingredients.
So it's a decision to say, I'm not gonna make premium quality. I'm gonna make average or low quality because I wanna make as much money as I want.
Tommy Truong: That's a really good point because typically what we see in the industry is it's cannabis first. The edible mouth experience second, where you flip the script script and your approach is amazing chocolate, amazing food product first.
Julian Rose: Yep.
Tommy Truong: And infuse with amazing cannabis, which you guys grow too,
Julian Rose: Yeah. Yep. I always say that that happened. It happens to have [00:10:00] cannabis in it.
Tommy Truong: yeah. Yeah. I love that. How, how, like from a business perspective, and you, you've seen this firsthand. The, you, you were a consultant in, in our industry, you were start out and people saw that, hey, there's light bulb movement here. I can increase my sales, I can really impact my business if I approach this in this angle. your, you've seen the success in Insa. How has, know, from the time that you've maybe consulted with with them to now, how has that changed?
Julian Rose: Well, I think, um, what is happening in the, in the, in Massachusetts, and it's happened on the West coast, uh. Years ago, you're having like price compression now. There's a lot of competitors. And now this, the point I was going to touch about is like when the consumer, the typical consumer is [00:11:00] buying THC, is buying cannabis, a cannabis product, and is less concerned about flavor and quality.
And more about how high can I get or how much THC am I buying for price X? And, and this is where, it's interesting when I step back and look at my, my training in the conventional industry, and as a businessman, I, I get it. I get it. That people are comparing. Two cannabis products, and if both of them are $25 or one is 20 and one is 25, the typical cannabis user is gonna pick the $20 thing because it's, is it how much THC in this one?
How much TH in this one? And I think. That's where the dilemma is. Um, but in my opinion, [00:12:00] when people taste a great product and it tastes really good, and it's pleasant and it's satisfying and it leaves you like a wow impression, even if this product is $25. I think you're gonna go for the $25 'cause it tastes good in, in the edible.
It, it's like in, in the word edible. It has to be palatable. You, you need, it needs to taste good. And if it doesn't taste good, I think people will not come back or they'll try something else. Right. So I, I'm. I'm a hard believer that quality and flavor I is going to cede all of that because they will come back when they, even if they say, well, I'm gonna treat myself, I'll get an INSA bar today instead of another cheaper bar.
Great if, if you want to consider it as a better treat or higher quality, or maybe you want to gift it. Um, I think that's [00:13:00] always on the forefront for me. It's important that the quality remain. Um, and I've
Tommy Truong: you guys, have you guys insulated yourself from price compression because of the quality?
Julian Rose: a, a little bit, but we, we see, we see the, the price compression across the board, whether it's flour to edibles. Um, because that's the, the problem is, or the, the question is when you have too many players, uh, people start dropping the price and, and everyone's gonna suffer. So the pie is getting cut up in more pieces.
Uh, but again, I think quality is gonna remain a, a winner because people like good products and predictability. You know, when people travel and they go to a, a Starbucks, whether it's in France or in the us, they, they know what to [00:14:00] expect. So, predictability in a restaurant industry, in a bakery. And people want to know that every time they go back it's gonna taste the same.
So that's pretty important. Then, then includes, includes the other ingredients, the THC, um, how, how good is it, you know, when you, when you talk about milligrams per serving, whether you have cannabis distillate from company A or company B on paper. The distillate quality is about the THC percentage, right?
So by, with all the regulations in Massachusetts, for example, each portion needs to be five milligrams for, uh, the, uh, recreational industry. So each piece, five milligram package, maximum a hundred milligram. So whether it's from A or B, it's a hundred milligram. It's regulated to per by [00:15:00] portion and, and, um, package.
So what's the difference? You know, when you're talking about cannabis, the, what's the difference? You have the same milligram, now it comes into workmanship, quality of product, packaging, freshness, et cetera, et cetera. So that's where. Consumers ultimately are gonna start making a difference. Right now, it's still a little bit, I would say, um, people are getting much more educated, more savvy I think, but uh, with even price compression across the board, everything in the grocery store is more expensive.
So if you can, you know, save $5 here or there. People are gonna do it, but I think we're not immune to the price compression, but I think we're, we're in a position where people recognize the quality and yes, it might be a little bit more expensive, but it's certainly way better.
Tommy Truong: You've [00:16:00] hit the right segment
Julian Rose: Yeah.
Tommy Truong: I was gonna ask you, what is your thought process on. So, you know, when you're thinking about creating a new product or keeping a product that keeping a line going, how much thought do you put into the experience of eating the product to the experience of what you feel after consumption?
Julian Rose: That's a good question. I, when I develop products, and for me it's, it is a never, never ending. I, I don't, you know, set aside a Monday and then create a product. I. It's an ongoing thing that never, never stops. My, I'm influenced by temperature, uh, travel, availability of ingredients and so on. And then my culinary side wants to explore deeper and deeper into, you know, kind of this, this blend of savory and sweet, which is kind of interesting.
People like the sweet, [00:17:00] salty, you know, kind of line the fine line. And it has to be well balanced. 'cause if something is too salty, you miss the mark, you know? Um, but I think I don't create a product specifically, um, for the after. The after is gonna happen anyways because I'm gonna infuse a product. But I do want to.
A lot of my chocolate bars, for instance, I, I add inclusions. Inclusions are little bits and pieces that you can put in inside the bar to have crunch or fizziness or texture. And then sometimes I even decorate the top of the bars with a little bit more of these inclusions to, to make sure the consumer sees that there's little bits of caramel or there's sea salt or.
Um, I'm gonna do another kind of Oreo cookie, uh, bar next year. So of course there's gonna be crushed Oreo cookies and there's gonna be a sprinkle on top and [00:18:00] it has to be approachable. So this is something that I, I realized when I was a pastry chef. I did, uh, I remember very well one instance where I did a, a chocolate mousse.
A white chocolate mousse with green any seed. So any seed is not licorice. It's more anis, uh, and, um, fennel, more like fennel, if you will. And it's actually the seed of the fennel plant, so it's very delicate and it, it marries very, very well with raspberries. So I made a white chocolate mousse with raspberries and the mousse was infused with green anis seed.
And when I was describing it to people. They, they, they couldn't grasp what Anis seed was, but the piece was tremendous. So I just stopped describing it as with Anis seed, I just said, infuse white chocolate mousse with raspberries. And then they would taste it and be like, oh my God, [00:19:00] this is so delicate.
What is that flavor say? So it's not about in your face flavor, like rip your. Tongue apart. It's more of when you infuse or you soak or you like, like a refined tea. If you, if you overdo it, the tea is bitter and doesn't taste good, but you have to dose it correctly. So that's kind of interesting. When you, when I, one of our best selling bars is a double sea salt caramel, and I call it double sea salt caramel because we have a, a really great Belgian.
White chocolate that is caramelized. So it's just like, it has this nice color, this nice warm flavor of caramel. There's a little bit of sea salt, and then I supplemented with little bits of salted caramel, hard salted caramel bits, so it's double caramel. And that bar, we won awards a couple of years ago.
Best bar in, uh, in Massachusetts because [00:20:00] it delivers on flavor and then you have a little bit of texture. And you know when, when you, you bite and it crunches in your head, it's pleasant. Like a chip. A chip is pleasant because you hear the crispiness and the crunch. So back to the question, I do compose the products to have the best.
Uh, culinary experience and it happens to have THC
Tommy Truong: Yeah. Do you, does the terpene profile of the cannabis come out in, in the product?
Julian Rose: sometimes. Yes. And then we, we are playing with, uh, supplementing with some terpenes to have, you know, that entourage effect that's specific. So we're doing, uh, in different states in Pennsylvania, we're doing products specifically designed that way 'cause it's a medical, uh, market in Massachusetts. We're playing around with that all the time, especially in the vapes.
The vapes, they do, uh, supplement with different, uh, terpenes to. [00:21:00] Fits specific profiles, but that, that is a very interesting avenue. I think that is under explored and it's probably gonna grow more and more. Um, and I would say the consumer also five years ago, didn't know about terpenes. Now they know about it
Tommy Truong: Yeah. Well, I'm, I'm now thinking about. Uh, you know, when you smoke cannabis and say you eat a mango, the mango enhances your experience of the cannabis and just thinking about how much you probably geek out on, on, on doing that.
Julian Rose: Yep. And it, there's a movement in, uh, in food that's called food pairing. You know, where you're gonna say, oh, what, what pairs well with scallops. And then, um, it's all about the molecular, um. How products exudes different flavors, which are terpenes and then what terpenes match Well with the other and, and like I was describing that pastry, I Anis, green Anis seed and [00:22:00] raspberry are made like.
To be married.
Tommy Truong: Mm-hmm.
Julian Rose: And it's not obvious when you, when you just look at those two products, you're probably not gonna do it. And that's another, another aspect of where, where a high-end restaurant, a chef that's very versed in what he's creating and the food that is around him. Some chefs have that natural kind of instinct of taking this and that and putting it together in the right proportions.
Do you have an experience that is, you know, out of this world?
Tommy Truong: I think you guys have tapped into such a huge competitive advantage in having a culinary experience in your edibles. How has and if, if you can share this, how has this impact the overall sales? Have you seen just the overall company sales, the edible portion increase in proportion to everything else?
Julian Rose: Yes. And, and also I think it's, it has been [00:23:00] much more stable. Our sales available has been more stable than other, uh, family of products. So, like I said, like, uh, vapes and joints, people and, and,
Tommy Truong: a commodity sometimes,
Julian Rose: Yeah, they become commodity. And I talked to our head grower here and sometimes he's like, people are so focused at the highest THC possible when, when a joint with a flower that has like 24% THC might be way better than something that's 32.
You know? But, but it's again, that, that allure and, and I call it the, uh, product value equation because if, if it's $25 for 32% and $25 for 24%, what are you gonna take? You know? Uh, so, and I questioned early when I do was doing consulting. I said, why don't you, you meaning. The cannabis industry, why don't you [00:24:00] sell by the milligram?
It would be much more fair. So like if you, so if you want to have something that's 32 or 35%, you're gonna pay a little bit more than something that's 24, right? It's like, it's almost like gasoline high octane you, you pay more So. Uh, so I think from the early beginning of the cannabis legalization, it, it was a little bit like the far west, you know, it was all over the place and the pricing was all over the place.
And then it kind of defined itself as they do flat, flat pricing for specific products because it's easier.
Tommy Truong: Have, have you seen the consumer? A consumer wants, how they has it evolved. What I mean by that is when I go in, when I get, when I go into a cannabis shop today and I'm buying, uh, cannabis, I care less about the TC [00:25:00] percentage and just more on what it, what feeling am I after. Um, has that changed at all in from your experience and, and also from an edible perspective as well?
Julian Rose: Yes. I think, uh, you know, uh, of course the, the biggest disease now that people have is lack of sleep. So the products that are, for instance, the gummies or the tablets or, or even a chocolate bar that we have for, for sleep aid, those are very popular and people are getting more sophisticated. And now we're also using.
CBN and CBD, uh, so other cannabinoids to, to help, um, create the product that is the best execution of that. You know? And like you said earlier, you're a consumer that is more inclined about how you're gonna feel or how you want to feel for the health benefits, I would say. And when. I think that's something that consumers, now, the, the line has [00:26:00] been, uh, I wouldn't say erased, but it's been very blurred that now people, they know that there's a benefit to canvas.
It's just like saying, you know, 20 years ago, if you would say like chamomile and herbal teas. You were like a granola marginal person. Un until like now it's like it's much more common. And then people know that chamomile calms you and mint excites you and so on. And that's where I think people now are getting much more into, in tune with what they need, uh, of this product, which is cannabis.
Uh, they're much more in tune in saying like. It's not just about getting high, I just want to have this experience or this calmness or, or the focus
Tommy Truong: Tell me a little bit about what is your best selling product? What do people like about it, and how does it make people feel?
Julian Rose: so that, that the double sea salt caramel bar is still the bestselling bar,
Tommy Truong: Hmm.
Julian Rose: [00:27:00] uh, for the chocolate side. Uh, but we also created about, uh, two and a half years ago, I created a, a little peanut butter cup. A little peanut butter cup that, uh. I ended up making it a little smaller, like bite size. Um, and we call those smooches because they, we, we kind of crushed them flat and so little disc, if you will.
And it has a really creamy peanut butter filling inside, so that sells very well. And then on the gummy drops, the sleep, the sleep gummy, we have, uh, one that has melatonin, one that has CBN and CBD. And one that has CBN and melatonin. So it's like we're, we're kind of making an offering that is well balanced because it's not just about saying, Hey, it has melatonin, and some people don't tolerate me melatonin or don't like it.
So we kind of declined the offering to have three and probably we're, we're [00:28:00] gonna have more products that are. Uh, refined and tuned to the customer's desire.
Tommy Truong: You know, when you're creating a product, what does the r and d look like? How do you think about a product and What does the testing, the trying it, making sure that it, it meets your, your standard. Obviously it's really high. What does that look like?
Julian Rose: Uh, it looks, uh, like a, a. A little bit of a disjointed experiment. Uh, like I said, I, I create products like I have behind me here that it's like I have tons of products in my rack here that are in development, so they haven't hit the street yet. Um. I, I'm kinda testing size, pricing, flavor, and then doing different versions of the same flavor.
So just like today, I'm working on a, a somewhat of a taffy, if you will, like a chewy, chewy piece. And we want to do a honey and lemon. [00:29:00] Which is interesting 'cause you're like, is it honey and lemon? Or lemon and honey? You see the difference? 'cause I can, I can push harder on the honey and less on the lemon or vice versa.
And then as, as a general, uh, process that the r and d process. Is usually for me anyways, it takes about six months. So from, from a concept of an idea, so like, let's take this one, this lemon honey taffy. Uh, I'm gonna start by looking at it, thinking about it, creating a few base recipes, and then I taste test the base recipes, and then I quickly go to pricing.
So I need to cost out what I'm creating. 'cause obviously when I'm doing high-end, high quality, expensive ingredients, it has to cost out in the early stage. I don't want to be at the end close to a commercialization and be [00:30:00] like, whoops, it's costing too much, you know? So, uh, so then when, when you do your, your initial costing, if, if.
If there's a challenge, you have to go back to square one and simplify it or change the ingredients or try to source different, uh, products that are gonna be silver or you kill the product also. So this happens quite often that you, you kill a product. Um, I did the for special event, I did a Dubai Dubai chocolate cookie.
Version. So it's like the Dubai bar with that pistachio and kafi, uh, that everyone talks
Tommy Truong: My wife is obsessed for that right now, by the way.
Julian Rose: So, uh, I did like an Oreo cookie, actually, I have, I haven't here, so I, I did different versions, um, like this one. Okay. And it's actually, here's, here's the thing that I also, um, I imagine I'm gonna try to break it apart here.
So what I did is I put an Oreo cookie inside.[00:31:00]
Tommy Truong: Oh, that looks fantastic.
Julian Rose: Yeah. And then the, the pistachio top. And the reason I did that is because. Um, here, here in, in Massachusetts, I think people are, if you hear pistachio, they're like, ah, I don't like pistachio. They just right away say, I don't like pistachio. And you're like, wait, have you tasted the, or have you seen the Dubai bar?
And they're like, yeah, but I don't like pistachio. So I had that in mind when I did the samples. And then we tested it in our Spring Springfield store, which is our largest and most, uh, popular store. So I took some of those cookies, uh, uninfused. And for a special event on a Friday, I went personally to the store and I just were, was offering these cookies and over and over people were like, oh no, I don't like pistachio.
And I'd be like, oh, but there's an Oreo cookie under, I'm like, ah, okay, I'll try it. 'cause it, there's a cookie and I know what an Oreo cookie is. [00:32:00] So you see the hook. The hook is the oil cookie and the pistachio is the refinement. So.
Tommy Truong: know that that goes well together? Because that sounds fantastic. I wanna try that.
Julian Rose: Yeah. Uh, well, I have a very good memory of flavors and, and I think it, everyone, most everyone has this good memory. 'cause like if I tell you butter popcorn in your head, you can taste it, right? So it's in your, your memory, bank of flavors. So. Um, my memory bank of flavor is very large and very deep, I guess, and I can almost imagine what it's gonna taste like before doing it.
And like I said, the, the reason I picked the Oreo is because of the hurdle of offering something pistachio to people. And then I knew there would be a reaction. And, and then overwhelmingly when they tasted it, they're like, oh wow, this is amazing. [00:33:00] 'cause it, the pistachio is, it's nutty, it's nutty, and, and then the tai feed, a little filo dough, it adds crunch.
So it's a pleasant experience. And then it's covered with chocolate. So it's like, what is it? You're not gonna like you. Um, so it was
Tommy Truong: the head though.
Julian Rose: extremely well received. So I'm, now, I'm working on, on editing the, the product to make it viable for commercialization.
Tommy Truong: Ah, I see. So come up with a concept. Make sure that it's commercially viable. Product, market tested, product market tested. Once you, once it hits that benchmark where you're like, okay, we can invest more resources into this. Now you're at the commercial viable stage where, how do we actually make this.
Julian Rose: Yep. Yep. And you see that the value equation. Um, so this, this is another one that I'm kind of like, it has just merry Christmas on it. So this one is a simplified, bigger, [00:34:00] bigger flatter version. Um, and basically that price equation needs to work. And I, it comes back to like if the CU customer says, how much is this piece?
And I say. Just for example, $10 and then it's five milligrams. This is $10, five milligrams, but they can buy a bar for $25 for a hundred milligram. You see the challenge. So now it's all about the experience and the flavor and the crispiness and all that stuff. Now it becomes kind of like a treat. So. Uh, because I, I can't sell a box of 20 cookies for $25, you know, so it,
Tommy Truong: How much of your pricing is influenced by um, 'cause we're in the cannabis business, and how much is it comparable to? Say, if I went to a bakery and I bought a pistachio Oreo [00:35:00] cookie, it would cost me X dollars. Do you factor those two? Figure out what the, what the right pricing would be.
Julian Rose: Yeah, I, I see your, your question. It, and it's becoming very close to equal. So when I had my pastry shop bakery, uh, I did high end. Chocolates, you know, like you see in high-end shops with colors and infused with tea and honey and raspberry and so on. So little bonbons, very kind of European style. And back then they were about $2.50 each.
Right. So now we're, we're getting very close where the price, including cannabis is almost at par with that, which is kind of crazy. So now the THC factor. Is getting, that's what is being compressed.
Tommy Truong: Yeah.
Julian Rose: You still have a good quality product. You still have them their, their grams. [00:36:00] So let's say this cookie is like 50 grams or something, whether the cookie is five grams or 50 grams.
The price is getting a. Very close to be par with the conventional industry.
Tommy Truong: Mm-hmm.
Julian Rose: And so that's where it's gonna be interesting how, what is the bottom? How, when is it gonna stop? Because then something is gonna have to give,
Tommy Truong: Yeah, because I, I would imagine the cannabis infuse has to cost more because there's just so much more process involved
Julian Rose: yep.
Tommy Truong: putting in the plant into a high quality cookie or a pastry.
Julian Rose: Yep. But I think, you know, there's probably a few companies, I don't know if it's true here in Massachusetts, but like in California, in Oregon, when I left Oregon, uh, some companies were just dumping flour. They were like down to $55 an ounce. And it's like, dude, why? Why are you doing this? It's gonna ruin the, ruin the industry for everyone.
Tommy Truong: [00:37:00] Yeah.
Julian Rose: So, you know, like where, where, or who's gonna do this kind of awkward move? Just, or sometimes it's last ditch effort, they're going outta business and then they just dump the product and, and then it damages everyone's business. I.
Tommy Truong: You know the, how do you pick what cannabis product to go into your, your cookies or your. Your bakery products, what is the process involved in that? Where I want this strain, gonna mirror really well with that pistachio cookie. What goes into that?
Julian Rose: Uh, so we are actually very lucky because we, we process everything from, from seed to finished goods. So we do our own grow and then we do our own extraction. So we have the luxury of controlling that. Um, most distillates are a blend of flowers, so we, like a typical distillate is not [00:38:00] strain specific or even variety specific.
But we can, we can do it. And sometimes we have, um, the luxury of be being able to take a strain that is more sativa, for instance, and making it distill it out of that. Uh, and also that's where the, the terpenes come into play. You can, you can mimic the profile of a sativa or in indica by picking the right terpenes that are gonna be supplemented to the distillate.
Tommy Truong: That's what I was gonna ask you.
Julian Rose: Yeah. And then, and then we also do blends. So some, like I was mentioning earlier, when we do a gummy that has, uh, five milligrams CBNC, BD, and THC, our lab creates a distillate that is blended already. So it, it's, it's above a full spectrum, if you will, because it, we've sliced the, sliced the cannabinoids into segments, and then [00:39:00] we assembled those segments into this one, to one, to one distillate.
So we can do almost anything we want because we have the control here. Uh, from the beginning till the end, so we can tell the grower, Hey, we're gonna need more indica in, in three months. So they're gonna plant more of those strains to, um, to accept the, the demand.
Tommy Truong: Julian, not a lot of cannabis businesses have the luxury of hiring a world class C chocolatier onto their team. If I was somebody that was looking to, actually, no. I should ask you this. Do you guys wholesale your, um, your product to other dispensaries?
Julian Rose: Yep. In Massachusetts, of
Tommy Truong: Oh, so, okay, so in Massachusetts, if you're listening to this, you locked out 'cause you can, um, you can join the party in offering these goods. Where would somebody start if they weren't in [00:40:00] Massachusetts?
Julian Rose: Uh, well, they, they can come visit. Uh, and then we do have, uh, a large grow operation in Florida. So we have, uh, 10 stores in Florida. It's only a medical market, so, uh, restricted assortment. So we do, uh, some chocolate bars, some, uh, gummy drops, uh, some tablets, a little bit like, uh, aspirins if you will, like a little pill.
So we do different products. And of course, uh. Joints and vapes and all those things. So in Florida, we have, in South Florida, in Pennsylvania, we have, in South Pennsylvania, we have a grow transformation extraction. Uh, we're opening our first store in a, a month or two. Uh, but we do sell a lot wholesale in Pennsylvania to all the other dispensaries.
So in Pennsylvania, in Pennsylvania, we were kind of the supplier to all the dispensaries. And, and finally we are gonna have a store not to compete with [00:41:00] our customers, but more, to have more exposure to the consumer.
Tommy Truong: Mm-hmm.
Julian Rose: And then in, in Massachusetts, we have five stores, medical and recreational. Uh, and that's the limit in Massachusetts to regulation.
As you know, every state is different. Um, so each company cannot have more than five stores, uh, and a blend of stores. So it's kind of a little complicated, and if you want to expand, you have to buy out other companies. So it's it's interest. So, you know, as you know, it's not universal and easy. Every state has different rules, different dosage, different regulation, different testing, uh, packaging limitation, naming denominations, all of that.
Like in Florida, for instance, we can't. I can't say Cheesecake Bar or Cheesecake Chocolate Bar. 'cause they, they're gonna say, oh, cheesecake is a dessert and you can't call it that. So, [00:42:00] and that's where you see the wacky names sometimes in like on the west Coast or in different areas. You see wacky names and you're like, what is that?
That's the one reason.
Tommy Truong: I, I always think to myself, uh, not recreating the wheel and. Leveraging the, the people that are doing the work already. So if you're in Massachusetts or in, in an area where you guys inside is around, you guys have lucked out from your experience that you are in the industry and you probably try other edibles yourself. When you, when you're eating an edible, what thoughts go through your mind that, Hey, this, this is really good, and what are some thoughts in your mind that, hey, this is actually not really well made.
Julian Rose: Yeah, it, that's, I'm a, I'm a very difficult customer,
Tommy Truong: Yeah, well, for sure.
Julian Rose: so it's funny because like I actually don't taste a lot of other competitors' products. Yeah, [00:43:00] just because I, I, I tend to always be disappointed and this is my, uh, my, my problem even to go to restaurants. I don't go to restaurants a lot because I know how to make it.
And then when I, when I'm being served a plate, that is disappointing. I just right away like, ah, I should have stayed home.
Tommy Truong: Yeah. No, you, you are. You have such a high bar, right?
Julian Rose: Yeah. So it's like, I think, you know, there's, there's something for everyone out there. Uh, I'm not saying that we're the ultimate, uh, what is ultimate, you know, I think consumers have to choose and pick and choose, and I think we try very hard also to have great service in our stores. Um, pricing that is, uh, fair.
Tommy Truong: Wait, I was gonna ask you that. What is the strategy on, if I, if I'm a retailer today and I wanna have, I wanna expand the edibles that I am telling, [00:44:00] can you walk me through, if you can share some of the strategies that a retailer should think about shelf life, pricing, margins, all of those things.
Julian Rose: I am not involved in sales per se. Uh, but I think what you just mentioned is, uh, typical, you know, uh, I think we're, uh, we're also seeing smaller stores struggling because you see this price compression is, is being difficult. If you, if you just have a dispensary, you're kind of stuck with, with the only the margins that you can make.
So you don't have the, the manufacturer's margin, you have a, a wholesaler margin. Uh, so this is where it becomes kind of difficult for like the stores to pick and choose. They're gonna be offered all sorts of different products. And fortunately or unfortunately, they're gonna be inclined sometimes to take [00:45:00] the lesser, the lesser quality because they're just thinking about margin.
I. You know, but I, I think all of this, when you, when you really think about it, um, it's, it's very parallel to the normal world, if I can call it that. When you're, if you own a supermarket, you're gonna be pushed, you know, tons of people are gonna say, Hey, buy my ketchup. And you're like, yeah, but your ketchup's so expensive.
And you know, and then they decide, and then they give you shelf space for three months. And if it doesn't sell through, you're out. And it's happened, it's, it's the same. So you have to do like a promotions, you have to do a sometimes a fill, which is, uh, buy two boxes, get one box and things like that. But under, under the regulations from each state.
So it's not. It's not, uh, to say that we give product away, but we, we push promotions sometimes to have those [00:46:00] specific stores talk about our gummies or talk about our chocolate bars during a specific timeframe. So it's, that's where it's very parallel to the normal, uh, retail and commercialization industry.
The, the retailer has to make his margins. The manufacturer has to make a margin, and if both of them on both sides starts cutting it to shaving it to, to, you know, hair thin margins, it's not gonna end well.
Tommy Truong: No, and you see that a lot with the, I guess. The cycle of, uh, states, every state goes through the exact same, you know, when there's not enough product, too much product and all the way through. Yeah.
Julian Rose: And it's funny that like new states, they, the new states open up and they repeat the mistakes.
Tommy Truong: it's, yeah, it's, it's
Julian Rose: I don't get it.
Tommy Truong: until we get the ability to ship product across state lines, [00:47:00] were. We'll see this story over and over and over again.
Julian Rose: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Tommy Truong: Well, I really love what you guys have done to isolate yourself a bit from that fluctuation and come up with quality first and people, people come back for that experience.
Julian Rose: I think so. I think so. That's at the end people, I mean, look at yourself, how your behavior, you know, like if you, you go to a nice coffee shop and then you go to another coffee shop and you're like, ah, it's okay. It's closer. But at the end, you're still gonna go sometimes at the better coffee shop because you know it's better.
And,
Tommy Truong: Yeah, you know what you're getting.
Julian Rose: yeah. You know what you're getting. And, uh, just one last story, like when I had my, my pastry shop, Costco was beginning, like in Canada, and then I was selling fruit pies, you know, cherry pies and peach pies and cakes and all sorts of things. And then suddenly the, the, [00:48:00] the sales of pies. Kept going down and down and down, and I was wondering why.
And then finally some of the customers were, were almost friends. And I was like, don't you buy pies anymore? He's like, ah, well, you know, Costco has this giant pie for, for the same price, so like $10. $10, why would I get the smaller pie? And at the end I just stopped making pies because it's not, it's not viable anymore.
I can't, I can't sell it for six to, to gain back the customer. 'cause I'm not gonna make it 1 cent. So. Things evolve, things change, and the maturity of a company lies into when you, when you have, when you know that you can stop a product.
Tommy Truong: Oh, that's a really good point.
Julian Rose: because sometimes we hang on and we like, oh, I, I don't want to delete this item because I like it.
Yeah, okay. You like it, but it doesn't sell. Kill it. Kill it. You [00:49:00] know? So we, uh, this is a, something that we do not on a regular basis, but what, from my perspective, I, I started doing seasonal products for that very reason. When you do seasonal products, you're testing the market, you, you come out with something a little racy or, you know, I have some stuff.
Next, next year for, for our four 20. So the four 20 holiday, I'm gonna do a Frito's milk chocolate bar.
Tommy Truong: Fritos Milk, chocolate bar,
Julian Rose: Yeah, so it's crushed Fritos in a very creamy, delicious milk chocolate, and it has that, that perfect, salty, sweet, creamy thing that's like
Tommy Truong: Fritos, the chips.
Julian Rose: Yeah. Corn chips, Fritos. Yeah. So, uh, next time you're to the supermarket, buy a good chocolate bar, buy a bag of Fritos, and then eat them together and let me know.
Tommy Truong: I, no, I will. [00:50:00] Because when you said Fritos, I was like, is there, I know Fritos. Fritos is those barbecue chips, right?
Julian Rose: Well, the get the classic ones that are not barbecue. They're just
Tommy Truong: Oh, okay.
Julian Rose: they're like a little, they're little strips
Tommy Truong: yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Julian Rose: Frito-Lay. Yeah. So, so that, that's a seasonal that I, I come out with the seasonal for the four 20 holiday and depending if it's super well received, it might become an everyday bar. Or if it's the mar, if it's marginally received and people are like, eh, it was okay,
Tommy Truong: Well, you're gonna blow people's minds when they, your brain doesn't register when you say Fritos and chocolate.
Julian Rose: yeah. But it's freaking amazing.
Tommy Truong: Wow. I'm gonna have to try that. I'm gonna take your word for it. I'm gonna have to try that.
Julian Rose: So I, I have my lineup kind of ready for, for next year, the 2026. So like for Valentine's Day I'm gonna do a cookie dough, cookie dough, smooch. [00:51:00] So it's a, the filling is gonna taste and look like a cookie dough and actually, actually samples here.
Yep. Right here. So it's this big, but it has little choc chocolate chips and the inside, the inside is gonna be a, a cookie dough filling, so that, that's very nostalgic. Like people know, like cookie dough, like it's one of the most popular ice creams. So for, for Valentine's Day, that's gonna be a seasonal, so it's gonna come in and then go out.
And if people ask for it more and more, then it's gonna become a, a mainstream product.
Tommy Truong: Yeah,
Julian Rose: So that, that's part of the r and d pro process for us. We, we try out stuff, when it sticks, we, we push it.
Tommy Truong: Julian. I, I wanna thank you so much for coming on. I [00:52:00] love, I love hearing passion and it's very evident that you love what you do. And it's infectious. It's infectious. You're like in, in the playground every day. How can, where can our listeners go online and find you?
Julian Rose: Uh, well, so insa.com, uh, and of course we can't, we can't ship. Across the border, unfortunately. But if people are in Massachusetts or in Florida or Pennsylvania, you can find our products for sure.
Tommy Truong: Guys, if you guys are lucky enough to be in those states, reach out. That'll be the first thing I do when I come into town. Julian, thank you so much for
Julian Rose: Yeah, and if you're, if you're in Massachusetts, let me know. I'll give you a tour.
Tommy Truong: Oh yes, definitely.
Julian Rose: Yeah.
Tommy Truong: Well, I'm gonna take your, I'm gonna take you up for that. But yeah, thank you so much for joining us, uh, joining me and, um, gotta have you back. Thank you.
